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For now, secrecy orders on FE patents are justified.
| yes |    16.28% (21) | | no | 77.52% (100) | | partially (comment) | 6.20% (8) |
Total Votes: 129
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| "For now, secrecy orders on FE patents are justified." | Login/Create an Account | 10 comments |
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Re: For now, secrecy orders on FE patents are justified. (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Monday, February 09, 2004 @ 14:41:17 UTC | | What could possibly justify holding back progress? |
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This doesn't happen. (Score: 1)
by chipotle_pickle on Monday, February 09, 2004 @ 21:39:26 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com | | Are there any examples of people who claim to work in free energy who have had secrecy orders put on their patents? I'm not looking for 10 examples, just one. Why have a poll about a complete counterfactual? |
Re: This doesn't happen. (Score: 1)
by Archer on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 @ 14:45:43 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message ) | As it turns out, I myself am aware of only one such secrecy order imposed on a bona fide free energy researcher - Adam Trombly, for his work on the ACME homopolar generator entitled "Closed Path Homopolar Machine". [Trombly's co-inventer was Joseph Kahn.] As related in Thomas Valone's book "The Homopolar Handbook", Trombly & Kahn's patent application was rejected twice, the first time on the grounds that it simply wouldn't work, and the second time for infringement on prior art.
Since Faraday homopolar machines have been in the public domain for so long, it is likely that the only truly patentable part of their device was the novel liquid sodium-potassium (Na-K) brush system. Nevertheless, the Office of Naval Intelligence intervened shortly after the second rejection, declared the novel brush design 'Classified', and placed a gag order on the inventors citing "national security" issues related to DoD work on homopolar generator design.
However, Trombly & Kahn had also filed a PCT (Patent Cooperation Treaty) Application, a copy of which may be obtained from the World Intellectual Property Organization: Int'l. Publication # WO 82/ 02126, dated 24 June 1982 (24.06.82); Int'l. Application # PCT/US81/01588.
I'm sure there must be other instances where things like this have happened, and in fact I'm quite surprised that my own Patent was granted without a single question or objection being raised. It has since become painfully clear to me, though, that nearly no one on earth understands my work on the EDF Generator (an electrostatic induction variant of the Faraday dynamo) well enough to consider it a threat or even an item of much interest. In my own case, this is merely indicative of the general "dumbing-up" of people as our godless society evolves backwards, and in Trombly & Kahn's case it's simply another example of duplicitous and retrograde thinking on the part of those who Bruce DePalma called "the servitors of greed and ego".
Yours truly,
Mark Tomion
Pres.
Archer Enterprises |
] different issue ; the North Poll Diet (Score: 1)
by chipotle_pickle on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 @ 22:14:11 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message )http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com | Mark,
A lot of patents get turned down. And prior art ought to cause a lot more to be turned down (the one-click patent, the Y2K patents, ...). And no doubt mistakes are made in the opposite direction. But the discussion is about secrecy orders placed on patents because they involve national security issues. I'm unaware of a single instance of a self-proclaimed free energy researcher having a secrecy order placed on one of his patents, and, apparently, Vlad is also unaware of a single instance.
Maybe the next poll will be about what type of diet Santa should go on. |
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Re: This doesn't happen. (Score: 1)
by vlad on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 @ 19:49:26 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message )http://www.zpenergy.com | Some more comments sent directly to me:
--------
Hi Vlad,
I have been working with the mathematics of free energy online for the past couple years (www.tshankha.com), but nobody has ever threatened me or asked me to curb my work. I think what it comes down to is that some people spend a tremendous amount of time and money trying to find free energy. When they reach that point where they think of themselves as a failure, or when people demand proof, they instinctively hide behind the veil of black ops and conspiracy. There are probably others who are just so paranoid that when they receive a call and nobody is there, they immediately interpret that as a threat on their life because of their "important" work.
I know I've read a lot of conspiracy theories, and many of them seem to provide compelling evidence, and there are probably some people who borrowed money from the mob or stepped on a political opponent's toe. But I have not seen any compelling evidence that there is an organized cover-up for free energy. If anything, in light of my present research, I see an incredible string of ignorance that stretches back 100 years and more. People like Tesla who could have been the richest men in the world, but sold their souls and ended up paupers. And then there were the science wannabees, like Thomas Edison, who were shrewder at business than science, and lived a life of luxury.
If inventers would just share their first working idea with the public, in the public domain, they would be propelled to great heights and have many opportunities to invent other things that could be patented. As a case in point, John Hutchison is now beginning to reap the rewards of his levitation and cold melting experiments. If he doesn't learn to be a good business man, he too will pass from this world a pauper. But he does have a chance to make it right now if he plays his cards right.
Dave Thompson
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Hello, Vlad, and everyone on the Alternative or New Energy list, and those, like me, who could have a political interest:
Secrecy Orders are a real problem. The very people against whom they are applied, are bound over by law to *not* divulge to anyone that they've been given Secrecy Orders. The penalty is possible imprisonment. I doubt in such circumstances, therefore, that we'd ever find any individual who has a Secrecy Order, without risking his freedom, and perhaps a beating from the authorities (FBI?, Secret Service?, RCMP?, MI5?).
The dilemma is that for national security purposes, the authorities can always claim that the information from a "Free Energy" invention would be potentially useful to possible enemies one's country might have. For example, were Al Qaeda to have Free Energy information, it'd have a "leg up" on the United States and its allies, being able to travel great distances to its target areas in small, hard-to-detect craft, without concern for re-fueling. So the solution from one perspective, is to ban everyone from having Free Energy generators, except one's own miltary and police, or other agencies of government having a "need to know" ("black" projects?). So, with that "solution", one's own people would be forbidden from having devices which could free them from the shackles of diminishing supplies of oil, coal, and gas as basic energy, and begin to rapidly reduce pollution from the combustion of these non-renewable fuels. We also know that those who have the energy, can exert economic control.
Sincerely,
Hal Ade
Member, Canadian Action Party, Ottawa West-Nepean
Member, Planetary Association for Clean Energy
Member, "Keep Electricity Public", Ottawa
Member, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa
Subscriber, "Infinite Energy" and "Extraordinary Technology" Magazines.
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Dear Vlad,
Here is one case well know to me: When Ken Shoulders was ready to file his first patent on High-Density, electron Charge Clusters (HDCC) his patent attorney warned him that it would likely be classified SECRET. However, there was no government funds involved in the development. Therefore, it was perfectly legal to send information to others AS SOON AS THE PATENT APPLICATION WAS PLACED IN THE MAIL. A small book describing the HDCC technology was mailed to some 20 or more scientific friends in various parts of the world.
It took about two days for the patent office to classify this technology as SECRET. The attorney reported that these books had been sent to a variety of persons. The patent examiner asked for the mailing list. Unfortunately, the computer malfunction had eaten the mailing list. After a couple of days of discussion, the patent office withdrew the SECRET classification.
Later, the patent was issued as U.S. Patent Number 5,018,180.
One does not hear much about the inventions that get classified as SECRET because one can be jailed for discussing a SECRET technology!
In my career as a Missile System Engineer, I have worked on many SECRET projects. In all cases, the projects were government funded. The security classification was appropriate. However, it is my judgement that inventions, not funded by government funds, should NOT be subject to SECRET classification unless there is a negotiated agreement with the inventor and substantial funds paid to the inventor for his work and potential loss of income.
The above example is just one of many such occurrences.
Best personal regards,
Hal Fox,
Ed. J. of New Energy
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] Is Shoulders a self described FE researcher? (Score: 1)
by chipotle_pickle on Thursday, February 12, 2004 @ 07:56:50 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message )http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com | | Otherwise, you have listed no evidence that there are any free energy patents classified as secret. Why talk about if it's good or bad, if it doesn't happen? |
] Re: Is Shoulders a self described FE researcher? (Score: 1)
by vlad on Sunday, February 15, 2004 @ 18:56:40 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message )http://www.zpenergy.com | What do you think? Here are some of his quotes:
"Under preferred conditions, the gas pressure is reduced to the lowest value that will sustain the EV generation... With the input pulse length reduced to 5 ns for example, the corrected energy conversion factor becomes (16¸ 5)¸ 30 = 96. That is to say, with the input pulse lengths reduced as noted, energy available at the output of the helix of the traveling wave tube is 96 times the energy input to the traveling wave tube, in addition to the energy consumed within the traveling wave tube and the energy available in the form of collected particles at the collector electrode...Even a greater energy conversion factor is available if the input pulse is further reduced; an EV may be generated with an input pulse as short as 10-3 ns. The EV is a mechanism for tapping a source of energy [probably the zero-point] and providing that energy for conversion to usable electrical form...I believe a large portion of the electron charges contained within an EV are masked, so that... the EV does not manifest to external measuring devices a charge size equal to the total charge contained within an EV...I will invoke zero point fluctuations as the ubiquitous energy source to sustain the life of the EV... I claim that the initial motion of electrons set up at the time of an EV formation is kept in equilibrium or compressed further by the electromagnetic input from the zero-point fluctuations..."
And we know about Shoulders because, as Hal Fox mentioned, he was smart and managed to avoid the Secrecy Order. Once you get it...you know, the 3 monkeys...see/hear/talk no evil ;-). Here is some more info to enlighten you on this topic and not make a fool of yourself in the future (from The Secrecy Order Program in the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/index.html):
"The Invention Secrecy Act of 1951 requires the government to impose "secrecy orders" on certain patent applications that contain sensitive information, thereby restricting disclosure of the invention and withholding the grant of a patent. Remarkably, this requirement can be imposed even when the application is generated and entirely owned by a private individual or company.
There are several types of secrecy order which range in severity from simple prohibitions on export (but allowing other disclosure for legitimate business purposes) up to classification, requiring secure storage of the application and prohibition of all disclosure.
At the end of fiscal year 2003, there were 4838 secrecy orders in effect...
The Secrecy Orders apply to the subject matter of the invention, not just to the patent application itself. Thus, the Secrecy Order restricts disclosure or publication of the invention in any form. Furthermore, other patent applications already filed or later filed which contain any significant part of the subject matter of the application also fall within the scope of the Order and must be brought to the attention of Licensing & Review if such applications are not already under Secrecy Order by the Commissioner.
The effects of a Secrecy Order are detailed in the notifying letter and include restrictions on disclosure of the invention and delay of any patent grant until the Order is rescinded.
CORRESPONDENCE
When the Secrecy Order issues, the law specifies that the subject matter or any material information relevant to the application, including unpublished details of the invention, shall not be published or disclosed to any person not aware of the invention prior to the date of the Order, including any employee of the principals except as permitted by the Secrecy Order. The law also requires that all information material to the subject matter of the application be kept in confidence, unless written permission to disclose is first obtained from the Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks except as provided by the Secrecy Order. Therefore, all correspondence to be filed in an application which is subject to a secrecy order and which is directly related to the subject matter covered by the secrecy order must be transmitted to the Office in a manner which would preclude disclosure to unauthorized individuals and addressed as set forth in 37 CFR 5.33. Use of facsimile transmission is not permitted (37 CFR 1.6(d)(6)).
Subject matter under Secrecy Order must be safeguarded under conditions that will provide adequate protection and prevent access by unauthorized persons.
When applicants desire to change the Power of Attorney in an application under Secrecy Order, the name, date of birth and Social Security number of the new attorney(s) should be included in the change notice so that Licensing and Review may conduct the necessary access security clearance checks.
Applicants should also ensure that the correspondence address (37 CFR 1.33) of any application under Secrecy Order represents a location suitable for the receipt of security information...
IMPROPER OR INADVERTENT DISCLOSURE
If, prior to or after the issuance of the Secrecy Order, any significant part of the subject matter or material information relevant to the application has been or is revealed to any U.S. citizen in the United States, the principals must promptly inform such person of the Secrecy Order and the penalties for improper disclosure. If such part of the subject matter was or is disclosed to any person in a foreign country or foreign national in the U.S., the principals must not inform such person of the Secrecy Order, but instead must promptly funiish to the Assistant Comniissioner for Patents, Patent and Trademark Office, Attention: Licensing and Review Washington, D.C. 20231 the following information to the extent not already furnished: date of disclosure; name and address of the disclosee; identification of such subject matter; and any authorization by a U.S. government agency to export such subject matter. If the subject matter is included in any foreign patent application or patent, this should be identified..."
And here is how things work Chip (source: cryptome.org):
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
Office of the Secretary
Defense Science Board
AGENCY: Department of Defense.
ACTION: Notice of advisory committee meeting.
SUMMARY: The Defense Science Board Task Force on Identification Technologies will meet in closed session on March 15-16, 2004; April 15-16, 2004; and May 5-6, 2004, at Strategic Analysis Inc., 3601 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, VA. The Task Force will assess current technologies and operational concepts to identify and track individuals and materiel.
The mission of the Defense Science Board is to advise the Secretary of Defense and the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology & Logistics on scientific and technical matters as they affect the perceived needs of the Department of Defense. In this assessment, the task force's investigation will encompass defense, intelligence, and commercial systems, including compartmented technology in development and promising technologies in the lab that are not yet deployed..."
So, you go and run a poll on Santa's diet on your site John...it is safer ;-D
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] I'll take this as a "no". (Score: 1)
by chipotle_pickle on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 @ 08:02:04 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message )http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com | | Vlad, you don't say where the Shoulder's quotes are from, so I'm unable to put them into context. I did browse the patent, and it was obvious that that was destined for a secret label because it's nuclear related, not because it was related to perpetual motion. Nuclear technology is controlled because of the fear that the wrong people will build nukes. It is going to take too much effort to go through every patent application proposed to determine if it's a perpetual motion patent, That's why I asked a very simple question, if there are any inventors who describe themselves as free-energy/pmm inventors who have had patents marked secret. It's much easier to tell what someone describes himself as than to follow through the design and equations. You haven't found anyone who fits that description. |
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Re: This doesn't happen. (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Monday, February 23, 2004 @ 05:46:27 UTC | I like these examples of how to get around the corrupted US Patent Office. When your only choices are:
1. involuntary classification, in which case the US govt becomes your one and only customer, which means they can dictate price and manufacturer,
2. publish 18 months before patents are granted, which means everyone in the world can reverse-engineer the invention before you even get the patent,
3. denial on the charge that your invention violates "established" science,
it is refreshing to see another option: patent, but prevent the involuntary classification by going "open source" at the same time. Patriots may howl that the tactic gives away potentially harmful technology, but the alternative is a list of Telsa-like inventors, never gaining any money for their invention.
How many inventions have been duplicated by independent researchers because of the US Patent Office slapping 'gag' orders on the inventors? That's the real harm, to keep us walking around with blindfolds on, unable to see new horizons. We should be already refining established free energy and/or overunity devices, not making new ones from scratch over and over again, never getting past the prototype and venture capital stage. |
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Re: For now, secrecy orders on FE patents are justified. (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, June 05, 2004 @ 08:34:30 UTC | Please allow inventors/patent owners to recover their initial investments and reward their investors.
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